Jacob Marchini: All right. Welcome everyone to our webinar this morning. 5 golden rules of investing in precious metals with an Sdira
Jacob Marchini: before we get started. I would just like to give a short disclaimer that the entrust group does not provide any investment advice, nor do we endorse any financial products, any information and materials presented today are for educational purposes only. All parties are encouraged to consult with their attorneys, accountants, and financial advisors before entering into any type of investment or purchasing any products.
Jacob Marchini: Today we'll be going over the right type of questions to ask, so that you can make informed decisions when purchasing precious metals using your Sdira how to avoid mistakes when you're getting started, and some key insights into what's going on in the world of precious metals. Right now, at the end of the session we will be having a question and answer session to answer all of the questions you might have regarding the material presented today
Jacob Marchini: by way of an introduction. For myself. My name is Jacob Markini. I'm with the entrust group which is hosting this webinar. I've been with the company for over 9 years going on my 10.th And my role here is as a business development associate. I provide service and support to our new clients and referral partners, including many of the precious metals vendors who our clients buy precious metals from. I also have my certified Ira services. Professional designation from the Bankers Association of America
Jacob Marchini: by way of introduction about the entrust group for those of you who might be new joining us today we are self-directed Ira administrators or custodians. We keep records for your Ira accounts, and we help you make investments in alternative assets. So things like private equity loans, real estate or precious metals. Of course
Jacob Marchini: we pride ourselves on our knowledgeable staff, many of whom have the same sort of Cisp designations that I do, and we host monthly webinars just like this for the benefit of our clients and investors.
Jacob Marchini: The entrust group has over 5 billion dollars of assets under management across 24,000 plus active investors. We've been in business since 19 eighties with over 40 years of service, and we provide a single point of contact as our customer service business model. So if you decide to open up an Ira with us here at the entrust group.
Jacob Marchini: you are assigned to a business development manager and associate, like myself, who act as the primary points of contact to provide you with customer service. If you have any sort of question about your Ira with us
Jacob Marchini: now, without further ado. I'd like to turn this presentation over to our presenter today. Mr. Chad Roach, of Cornerstone, Boolean.
Chad Roach: Thank you, Jacob. It's good to be with you all today. Really appreciate an opportunity to talk about gold, silver, Iras investing. These are fun topics really great to be on this presentation, and great to be partnered with entrust. We've worked with entrust for quite a number of years, and just enjoy working with you all. So we're going to just
Chad Roach: jump right into this today and talk through it. My name is Chad Roach. As Jacob mentioned. I'm the founder of Cornerstone Bullion, and here in the Denver area, and been doing gold and silver for a couple of decades. Now, cornerstone Bullion, as a company has been around since 2,009. We are family owned and operated. We're an a plus rated dealer.
Chad Roach: and we love working with folks and just talking about gold and silver investment strategies inside of an Ira outside of an Ira. We just enjoy the precious metals markets and and have fun digging in there. So we're going to kind of jump into today's session. And just look at the 5 golden rules and the 5 golden rules really are, we're going to answer those by asking 5 questions. So
Chad Roach: the 5 golden rules are, ask the 5 right questions, and you're going to get to the right outcomes. As you look at gold and silver investing. I think the 1st most basic question that you need to have is why and understanding really the use case around gold and silver. So we just kind of want to dive right in and ask kind of the question like.
Chad Roach: why gold, why silver? Why would somebody look at precious metals. And let's understand a little bit more about that. I think the 1st
Chad Roach: here is just gold and silver act as an insurance against currency, devaluation, and uncertainty. Another way to just look at this is just inflation. As a general concern. I mean, this is a narrative that's been out there in the economy for a number of years. The Fed's worried about it. Presidential candidates talk about it. Everybody's concerned about the general direction of the dollar and just currency devaluation.
Chad Roach: valuation for 5,000 plus years of recorded history. Gold and silver have been tangible, finite, fungible, which means divisible and transportable stores of value.
Chad Roach: And so well, you know, you compare that against perhaps a very dynamic fluid central bank driven currency, and it becomes clear why, in times of inflation and uncertainty and instability. People revert back to gold and silver. And I'll just like briefly touch on the fact that there's claims out there of Bitcoin being digital gold.
Chad Roach: I think one of the key comparisons between physical gold and what the claims are around. Digital gold is that there's less tangibility around some of the digital forms, right. So physical, gold, physical, silver, it's chemical, it's anatomical or at the atomic level, and it can't be replicated right? So it's got that scarcity and uniqueness built right into it at the atomic level.
Chad Roach: Let's jump into the next point. Here. The dollar has lost over 96% of its purchasing power since 1913. For the history bus in the room today, 1913, is when the Federal Reserve was started right around the time of World War one. And if you were to trace the dollar's value since then, you see here the chart.
Chad Roach: the axis on the on the left hand side, is the purchasing power of the dollar in $1913 terms. And then you just sort of see the decline over the years of that purchasing power as expressed by $1913. So what we see here is just the incredible decline of fiat money over time.
Chad Roach: And and I think that's a really powerful example for why people have been and continue to be interested in gold. I think this saying has once gone, that in our grandparents generation gold was $30 an ounce, and it bought a nice man's suit.
Chad Roach: So if you were to walk into a nice retailer and get a nice men's suit, it would cost you $30 or one ounce of gold, and then in our parents generation, gold was perhaps
Chad Roach: $300 an ounce. If you were to back up like a generation ago, and it would also continue to buy a nice men's suit. And today gold is $3,000 an ounce, and if you were to walk into a nice clothier in downtown New York, and buy a nice men's suit. Then gold would still continue to buy you a nice men's suit. So the problem here isn't so much the
Chad Roach: you know, the pricing around men's suits. The problem here is the decline of the dollar and its purchasing power. And that's fundamentally what gold tries to address in its thesis. So gold has preserved value and outpaced inflation over the long term. And I'm going to double click on that with another chart here in just a second. But I'll also just throw this out. Central banks bought record levels of gold in 2022 and 2023, and I'd like to just maybe
Chad Roach: look at that here with this chart. You see, gold price
Chad Roach: not only keeps track with inflation over time, but continues to outpace it. So not only is gold tracking with just the general erosion of the value of the dollar, but actually is slowly even outpacing inflation itself, so you could look at it not only as a hedge against inflation, but also as an investment against inflation, has has continued to perform quite nicely.
Chad Roach: Also just another chart here. I think this is interesting to show just sort of recent central bank activity.
Chad Roach: You can see just over the last decade or so. Quite an uptick of Central Bank purchasing of gold, I think, perhaps indicating that central banks understand some of the flimsiness of the of the fiat system, and are looking to kind of bolster with more gold holdings themselves to give you a sense. Again, the chart on the left, the axis there is tons of gold.
Chad Roach: and the chart on the right is the dollar price of gold, and the blue bars are indicating what quantities of gold are being purchased by central banks, and then the black line traces the price. So a couple of correlations you can notice here, the more that central banks buy
Chad Roach: the more the price goes up. I think that's 1 of the correlations we're kind of seeing. And you can also just see that historically, over the last few years there's been an unprecedented amount of central bank purchasing, and that makes sense because we've seen this very, very interesting price action in gold as it sits today at, you know, somewhere close to 32, $33, or 32 to $3,300 per ounce. And that's just such a huge.
Chad Roach: a huge price action in the last number of years. So
Chad Roach: let's let's jump here to the next question, which is the who
Chad Roach: and this is as important as as the why, you can't just conclude that like, hey, it makes sense to be buying gold. But then, like, where do you get it like? That's the next question you have to answer. And I think in, especially in the Ira world, for gold investing. It's so difficult to keep track of the various parties that I'm going to pause here, and I just want to like, make sure we understand who the right parties are. So the 1st party that you need. If you're going to buy gold or silver inside of an Ira is a custodian.
Chad Roach: and entrance is a custodian, and they you can call them up, you can set up an account. They actually keep you legal, and they keep the paperwork going, and they handle all the tracking around your Ira account.
Chad Roach: They also do their 401 Ks. And Ira transfers, and they can help answer questions. At the end of this call, or at the end of this webinar. So like, if that's something you'd like to learn more about, they can help there. They're the experts on that separate from your custodian over here is the dealer that you buy the gold and silver from. So once you have an Ira account
Chad Roach: funded with or set up with entrust you would call a dealer like cornerstone bullion. There's any number of different dealers out there, and then we would actually be the ones to help you think through what kinds of product you want to buy? Do you want to buy gold or silver coins or bars? How many ounces? And that's our place where we help. So there's the custodian like, entrust a dealer like cornerstone bullion.
Chad Roach: And then there's, thirdly, the depository and the depository is the group that we're going to actually ship the metals to on your behalf.
Chad Roach: So when you purchase and own gold and silver inside of an Ira, you're not taking personal possession of that gold and silver. It's actually against the rules to be able to take
Chad Roach: personal possession. It's going to be stored in a 3rd party depository or a 3rd party group that keeps that metal safe on your behalf
Chad Roach: until you were to take a distribution from your Ira so common depositories out there. We'll talk about them a little more later on in the presentation here. But there's Delaware depository. There's Dakota Depository. There's these various 3rd party storage places, and that's who we'll ship the metal to on your behalf. It'll sit there on the shelf with your name on it, so to speak, and be stored there, so important to keep those parties separate, and it's important
Chad Roach: here to work with partners who have good experience, good service, and and great reputation. And that's true for all of those parties work with the custodian like entrust. It has good name, recognition. They've been around.
Chad Roach: and, you know. Ask those questions about fees and understand that and make sure that you're understanding that situation. You're working well with your custodian
Chad Roach: on the dealer side of things. I'll be candid. We started Cornerstone Bullion partially as a protest to what we felt like was just really shady practices in the world of precious metals. Dealers, lots of folks would just get kind of ripped off by the industry pay way too much for coins. Be told that they were really rare when they weren't just kind of practices that we didn't really enjoy and appreciate. So
Chad Roach: we recommend people before you choose your dealer, go to the better business bureau and see, have they gotten lots of complaints? What's their review score? Go to Google, go to social media reviews on a dealer.
Chad Roach: unfortunately, sometimes just Googling a dealer and like looking at, maybe like a 3rd party review of them may or may not be helpful. There's unfortunately bad practice in our industry of certain dealers paying folks to write sort of positive reviews on them positive articles that refer back to the dealer, and then that reviewer gets paid a commission based on the volume that they generate for that dealer. So kind of watch out for sort of like the paid review websites.
Chad Roach: I recommend folks use golddealerreviews.com. That's a website that just allows anybody who has made an order from any dealer
Chad Roach: to go and leave a review about their purchasing experience. But it only allows actual customers to leave those reviews. So you know, you're getting something more of a unfiltered and unbiased perspective. So golddealerreviews.com is like one great place to to start there. We'll cover storage and depositories a little later. So we'll kind of come back to that.
Chad Roach: It's important to know with this concept of what we call a buy sell spread, also referred to as like a bid, ask spread, and this is important. When you're choosing a dealer, let me explain what this means. Whenever you're buying gold or silver. You may be buying gold, a gold coin at, say, $3,400.
Chad Roach: That's the ask price, or the or the price that the dealer is going to sell to you at what's also important for you to know is, what price could you
Chad Roach: sell that gold coin back to the dealer? What would they buy the coin back from you at? That's what they call the bid or the buy price. And unfortunately this gets overlooked, and it's sort of a surprise for investors kind of on the backside of the transaction when it's too late. I remember I was in a conversation one time with a with a client, and he was about ready to buy a million dollars worth of gold, and he was comparing me and one other dealer.
Chad Roach: and I asked him, okay, what's that other dealer looking to charge you? And he kind of gave me the price and the quote on that I said, Did you ever ask him like what he would buy a pack at.
Chad Roach: and he's like, Oh, I should do that! So he asked the dealer what he'd buy back at. The dealer was going to buy this 1 million dollars worth of gold back from him for about $600,000 if he were to sell it right back, say the same day, which indicates that there was about a 40% spread between the buy price and the sell price. And that's
Chad Roach: really bad, because that means, like the 1st 40% of the gains that you have of that investment are going to go right back to the dealer's commissions, which is really really unfortunate. So ask the dealer that you're talking to. What would you buy this
Chad Roach: coin or bar back at the same day? Some dealers will advertise this idea of a buyback guarantee. That's a little bit of a scam every dealer does, and you can have a price that they'll buy back at. So there's really no need to like. Have a buyback guarantee, and no dealer can really promise you that he will buy
Chad Roach: a gold back if gold were to drop $200, or they sell you that gold coin. They're not going to buy the gold coin back at the same price they sold it to you at. If they do, they're either lying to you and not showing you the fine print, or they're just way overcharging you for the coin, such that they have that margin
Chad Roach: or or they're going to be out of business shortly, because no dealer can buy gold back if the gold price drops. And so this kind of buyback guarantees are oftentimes just an indication that you're probably dealing with someone that's maybe a little bit shady. So what you should get a sense for is like what, though, is a realistic spread between the buy price and the sell price of coins. And to just give you a general sense, if you're working with a good dealer, your buy, sell, spread on gold coins or bars in most cases should be somewhere around.
Chad Roach: call it one to 4%. And that's going to depend a little bit on quantity. And what item? You're purchasing a number of different things. Silver is oftentimes just a little bit higher in that spread because of the cost of shipping and storage. It's a little bit bulkier per dollar, so you might have a buy sell, spread on silver of call it around 2 to 10% in kind of normal markets. And then the larger your transaction is, the more competitive that buy, sell, spread should be. Obviously.
Chad Roach: if you're buying, you know, 100 or $500 worth of gold or silver, that's a different situation than if you're buying 50 or 100 or $150,000 worth of gold and silver, you should expect a more competitive buy, sell, spread in that situation.
Chad Roach: Lastly, just kind of touching on fees here. Just make sure you're asking your dealer about other fees. Not all companies are created equal in this respect. Several of our competitors spend between hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars per month in advertising. One of our competitors has, like a corporate jet for their CEO, like all of that gets
Chad Roach: incorporated back into the pricing at the end of the day. And so it's going to show up somewhere, either in their cost per coin, or you know, other fees, and just like, keep an eye out because some dealers do have to just genuinely for their business model charge a lot more than other dealers. So it's good to be thoughtful and careful on your research on pricing also watch for sales. Tax precious metals are not tax exempt in all States.
Chad Roach: And it really depends on the dealer that you're working with. Some dealers actually have to charge sales tax in every jurisdiction where that does. Some dealers don't, because they fall under what's called a de minimis threshold in that state, and they actually don't have to collect the same sales tax that another dealer might. So asking the question about sales tax, and then don't always assume that bigger is better for the dealer. Some of the bigger dealers have to actually collect more taxes because they've exceeded those de minimis thresholds.
Chad Roach: And so just kind of watch for that as well. And then, lastly, be careful on dealers that say they will store for you. In. Generally in our industry dealers are different than depositories or storage companies, and, generally speaking, you don't store your metal with the dealer you buy from that is handled by an independent or 3rd 3rd party group. So
Chad Roach: some tips there on kind of the the second, the second big rule, which is the who and we're going to jump into Number 3 here, which is the what what to buy.
Chad Roach: This is kind of the fun part, because it's fun to talk about specifics of like gold or silver. And I'd say, like what to buy like depends on your plan. So make sure that you're thinking through what the point is here of your investment. If you want to take a distribution from a self-directed Iri account, you can do that a couple different ways. One of the ways is to sell the gold or silver inside of your account
Chad Roach: back to a dealer like. So, for example, you'd sell it back to Cornerstone, and then the entire transaction would kind of happen in reverse from when you bought it, rather than us, shipping the metals to the depository, the depository ships, the metals back to us.
Chad Roach: We get those funds, and then we put them back into your entrust account and you can take dollars out of your entrust account. And so from that perspective, the gold and silver was just a physical, tangible thing that was sitting there. But at the end of the day you always interacted with the dollar side of it. On the other hand, and some folks don't know this, you can actually, when you take a distribution from a self-directed Ira account.
Chad Roach: you can take the distribution in kind and have the precious metals shipped to you, and that is one of the other options. And so you kind of think through that like is your goal. To just sell this metal back to a dealer in the end.
Chad Roach: convert it back to cash and take a cash distribution? Or do you eventually want to get your hands on those coins or bars and take those in person. So which way you want to go, there may depend a little bit on what kind of gold or silver that you purchase generally, if you're planning to liquidate for cash. The goal is to buy the product that has the lowest bid, ask or buy, sell, spread, so that you lose as little to fees. In the meantime.
Chad Roach: Even though that may or may not be the cheapest product. Oftentimes what it is is, it's the most popular product. It's the product that the dealer buys and sells the most often, and therefore has the lowest spreads on.
Chad Roach: If you're thinking of taking possession. On the other hand. Just make sure you think through that oftentimes taking possession of like larger, bulkier bars can sometimes be tricky. And so you just think through what what's the goal. Are you eventually going to pass this on to the kids and grandkids? What's the long term goal for that gold or silver?
Chad Roach: The next thing that we tell folks is to be really careful with purchasing numismatic or collectible coins that have really high markups, and I'll kind of give you a little bit of a definition here to work from, because I think that there's some confusion on this point. What is like bullion? We say that bullion is anything that is bought or sold primarily for the metal value
Chad Roach: instead of the collectible value. So a gold coin
Chad Roach: that's a bullion. Gold coin is primarily bought or sold because of the gold that's in it, not because it happened to be an 1893, something rather special coin that doesn't mean that you have to avoid old coins altogether. There are old coins, for example, let's say, an Ms. 60, $20, St. Gauden coin that is not that much different in price than a modern what we call the $50 gold eagle that's made by the Us.
Chad Roach: And so old coins aren't necessarily bad. If they are a low premium over their gold price. You want to avoid the highly collectible stuff that's generally where you see those huge bid ask spreads is in those collectible coins. Bullion is more liquid, more transparent, and more aligned with long term value, preservation, and less susceptible to the rapid fluctuations of a collector's mark.
Chad Roach: A market. So our basic rule of thumb is, don't buy anything too special, and dealers love to pretend like they have something really special, and that this special thing has more value than it does, whether it's the, you know special, you know. Trump coin that came out last week, or the new coin coming out from the Uk. Mint, and you know it's got the Queen on it, or the king on it, or whatever. And this is just going to be so special, and people are going to love it for generations.
Chad Roach: And the reality is is they're probably just trying to mark something up that they've got, that they want to sell you. And in 20 years from now it's nobody's gonna really know the difference. In fact.
Chad Roach: we've actually noticed certain coins like commemorative coins like Olympic celebration. And those sorts of things actually can tend to lose value more quickly than even just normal coins. So we just tell people, let's be careful on those stick with the more popular, well-known points.
Chad Roach: Okay, next point bars versus coins. Most investors are going to prefer the more commonly known items. And I would say, like, if to give you a quick hierarchy on that, like the Us.
Chad Roach: Canada, those are going to be the more popular and well-known items, especially here in North America, Switzerland, the Swiss banks, like Credit Suisse or Pam Swiss. Those could be well-known brands, lesser known, but not completely unknown, would be like the Austrian mint that produces coins with the EU, a European Union or euro value. The Australian Perth mint, or the South African mint that produces the Krugeran.
Chad Roach: and then kind of maybe, like lower on the value chain from there would be just the private mints, and those would be mints like sunshine, mint, or Silvertown mint.
Chad Roach: Those are kind of going to be the bottom of the stack. Another thing to just pay attention to is the 1099 rules that affects when you sell coins back outside of an Ira. And those rules just got some updated guidance after discussion with the Irs this last year. And so after decades of those kind of being the same, those rules just got changed so
Chad Roach: won't go into the details here. But you're welcome to call us and talk through that it's important to kind of be pay attention to those rules on which products are 1099 regulated and which ones aren't. So.
Chad Roach: last one here, Ira acceptability. If you're going to be in a Ira account, you need to pay attention to which items are acceptable or allowable in your Ira account. Not every item can go in an Ira account, even though a dealer sells it. So you want to make sure that you
Chad Roach: ask that question. And then gold versus silver. Right? So that's just another big question that people ask. There's a lot here in terms of price history between those and the key drivers, I think, for gold is gold tends to be thought of as like a precious metal used by central banks and used for jewelry, but less industrial overall in its focus.
Chad Roach: And silver is a little bit of a crossover. It has an industrial metal component. It's used in a lot of modern manufacturing electronics. Your iphone has silver, solar panels have silver.
Chad Roach: Historically, it used to be money in sort of ancient times, but with the advent of kind of modern digital money, credit cards, online banking those sorts of things. Silver lost its kind of everyday money function, and it's still thought of somewhat as a precious metal, but also is kind of a crossover to an industrial metal as well. Here's just a little chart that shows you sort of Ira acceptability. I just kind of flag this for your attention. Not all items
Chad Roach: are acceptable within an Ira account, and so make sure you you kind of pay attention to that.
Chad Roach: This shows you some of the popular items, silver. We found that in our business the number one most popular item, and I would say this is true for most dealers is the one ounce American silver eagle. You can see that coin there kind of at the left hand side of the page.
Chad Roach: and then the second one probably is the Canadian silver maple on the upper right hand side of the page. Those are both pure silver coins, and then, thirdly, privately minted. One ounce. Silver rounds and silver rounds are really just one ounce coins. Except in our industry, we typically use the word coin only for something that's nationally minted that has a legal tender value, so that us
Chad Roach: silver eagle has a $1 legal tender value, even though its silver value is far in excess of that, it actually stamped with a legal tender value, and that makes it a coin. Whereas if Billy Bob's refinery or sunshine mint, or a private company were to make the same one ounce round piece of silver, we wouldn't call it a coin, we would call it a 1 ounce round.
Chad Roach: so that's some of the key drivers there in this in the silver side of things on gold. You've got the American gold eagle, which is kind of the official Us. Bullion coin. It was introduced back in 1986, and they've been making millions of coins since then. It's a 22 carat coin. So it's a little bit more resistant to scratching, because it's not a 24 carat pure coin.
Chad Roach: But there's a certain part of the investor market that really likes the 24 carat points, and so in 2,006, the Us.
Chad Roach: Added the gold buffalo, which you see there kind of at the bottom left of the screen, which was the Us. Mint's 1st 24 carat coin, so 9 9 pure, and that's also got the same kind of legal tender us mint stamp on it that the gold eagle does. It's just 24 carats instead of 22 carats. Both of them contain one full ounce of gold. Probably next, most popular in the gold world is the Canadian gold maple leaf
Chad Roach: depicted there in the middle. It's also 99.9 9% pure. So it's a 24 carat coin pretty well known here in North America, produced by the Royal Canadian Mint. Then you also have gold bars. Oftentimes Swiss produced. They can also be American produced and believe the Australian mint. The Perth Mint has some bars out there, so I would say most customers in the world of gold buy coins.
Chad Roach: but bars are certainly an acceptable investment in both gold and silver as well.
Chad Roach: This gives you a little bit of a flavor for just the pricing of gold versus silver so historically. And I'll just kind of break this down for the ratio of gold to silver in the world. There was about 12 times as much silver mined as gold, and so, if you were to think of it strictly in terms of like a quantity of resources in the mining ratio. There's about a 12 to one
Chad Roach: ratio, but historically, gold has always had a slightly higher psychological value. People just generally regarded as being more valuable. And so it's historically had a something around a 16 to one
Chad Roach: price ratio, gold being 16 times the price of silver, and that kind of over the last number of thousands of years, from civilization to civilization.
Chad Roach: If you were to kind of fast forward to the last few decades, you will notice that show has increased considerably to around 65 to one. So I'll kind of show you the chart here. This chart is tracking, basically how much more expensive is gold and silver. So on the left axis there you have, you know, between, say, 30 and 100 to one gold being 30 to 100 times on this chart
Chad Roach: the price of silver based on the year that you're looking at. So you see, back in 2011, Silver had actually peaked up to close to $50 an ounce, and that gold to silver ratio is down close to 30, and then back in 2020 around the time of Covid. It kind of went the other way. Gold really spiked, silver dropped in value, and gold was 120 times the price of silver. But if you kind of look at the average around there around 65 to one.
Chad Roach: and we're kind of in recent times, if you kind of go over the far side of the chart. There, now that we're sitting here in 2,005,
Chad Roach: we're around 100 to one gold being a hundred times the price of silver. That's quite a
Chad Roach: high ratio from gold to silver, compared to certainly like long term history. But even as you look at this 20 year chart. I'm showing you here. Even compared to the short term history. We are sort of sitting on the higher side of that, indicating that perhaps silver could be undervalued compared to gold. Now, obviously, I'm not making any predictions here. I'm just showing some historical charts. Who knows what the future brings. But
Chad Roach: I found this chart to be interesting. As I compare the 2,
Chad Roach: let's talk a little bit about where where to put your metals and the storage safety shipping. It's important to kind of think about this role broadly. Metals in an Ira must be stored in a qualified depository facility, so you can't take possession of them on your own. You can't have them just stored at your local bank.
Chad Roach: have them stored at one of the approved facilities, and entrust can give you a list of kind of which facilities are approved for a depository in terms of cost. You should expect to pay usually some kind of a fraction of a percent of the value of your metal
Chad Roach: per year. So if you have, say, $100,000 in gold, you know, you might pay anywhere from 200 to $1,000 per year to have that gold stored in that facility, and that's largely to offset the cost of insurance such that there's ever a loss that that would be covered so
Chad Roach: helpful to. Just kind of. Think about that. One of the biggest questions to ask when you're choosing a depository is whether you want segregated storage or not, and I'll tell you what that means. So if you have non segregated storage, that means that you know your 100 gold eagles that you bought goes into the same general shelf of everybody else's gold eagles. So Joe's gold eagles, Bob's gold eagles
Chad Roach: and Nick's gold eagles all are on the same shelf, and when Bob tries to pull.
Chad Roach: just go to the shelf and grab gold eagles and they fill in, they ship them back. So basically, your stuff gets commingled with other
Chad Roach: products of like kind, whereas segregated storage means that the 100 gold eagles that Bob sends to the depository in 2025 are the same 100 gold eagles that Bob gets back from the depository in 2030 when he's ready to take possession of those coins or to sell those coins. And that's important for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it gives you a piece of
Chad Roach: that you worked with a reputable dealer, and you don't know who else out there, and what dealer they worked with, and what are the quality of those coins? And are some of the coins scratched, and you know, you just know that the what you paid for is what you got so think through segregation. It's usually more expensive to store that way, but I can sometimes give people good peace of mind.
Chad Roach: location, and proximity can come into play here. Some people like to think of something being generally in their side of the country, so to speak. So Delaware is a common option, especially, for, like a low cost option, the Delaware depositories store lots and lots of metal, and tend to be on the cheaper side. But sometimes folks on the western side of the country don't want their metal, you know, 5,000 miles away. And so they look at other places.
Chad Roach: There's Idaho armored vaults. There's Brinks. There's a Dakota depository decoder depository is a great segregated storage.
Chad Roach: So there's options there, of course, also thinking through customer service. Typically here the smaller depositories are easier to work with and more responsive than the big ones. We've heard some tougher stories about working with the bigger depositories in terms of just servicing needs so good to understand your exit. Are you going to sell this back to a dealer, or are you going to distribute to yourself? If you're going to take possession of those coins? We just really highly recommend getting segregated storage.
Chad Roach: We've seen some stories where folks will get coins back very damaged, very scratched, not the same coins we sent, and so it's just good to, you know, if you're interested in keeping quality high and getting the same coins that you purchase, we really recommend segregated storage. If you ever plan to take possession?
Chad Roach: Let's go ahead and think through the when. And you know, at the end of the day I don't know the future of the gold and silver markets. If I did, I'd be making a whole lot more money than I am today. I'd be just sitting somewhere pressing buttons on a computer trading. This stuff. But the reality is is nobody really knows
Chad Roach: what. When gold and silver are going to go up or down one way to kind of offset, for that is to do what they call dollar cost averaging. And and that's basically to just take whatever tranche of money that you're looking to invest and invest it over time in some equal you know portions. And so you can kind of
Chad Roach: even out the ups and downs of the market that can be helpful. But I'll also just say the other side of dollar cost averaging is, it takes more time you have to keep remembering to do it, and in some cases it can increase sort of the marginal transaction cost of purchasing metal. If you were to. Basically, we have a fixed shipping cost at our company, and so if you were to buy
Chad Roach: in 10 smaller orders versus one large order, you might pay 10 times the shipping costs to do the smaller orders, and in our company's case larger orders actually ship for free. So you can reduce shipping cost and save time by purchasing in a larger tranche. So just, you know, think through that and something we're always happy to walk people through in terms of how to think through their market timing
Chad Roach: the big picture trends to watch is just inflation, uncertainty, dollar weakness. You know. What is the fed talking about? Oftentimes gold can be very responsive to the Federal Reserve and their indications as to what they're planning to do in terms of dollar policy and future inflation, and then watch the macro indicators like debt.
Chad Roach: interest, rate, geopolitics, you know. War, peace, are we, you know, going to go to war with Iran, are we not? Are we in a trade? War with China, are we not? Gold and silver can be somewhat responsive to these dynamics as well? So we just recommend you. Keep a close eye on that, as you're thinking through timing.
Chad Roach: and just like stepping just one step back to the big picture here, what are some of the specific things happening in gold and silver. Right now it appears that gold and silver do appear to be exempted by tariffs so importing Swiss bars from Switzerland or Canadian gold maples from Canada not going to be subject to the tariffs. We don't expect much in terms of disruption in our industry directly, as a response
Chad Roach: to the tariffs, at least in terms of buying gold and silver coins or bars. Obviously the tariff trade, economy situation as a whole is creating a lot of volatility in all asset classes, very much gold and silver included.
Chad Roach: And so that's 1 thing to keep in mind us debt over 34 trillion is eroding confidence in fiat. So you're having gold explode. You're having the other kind of gold equivalents like Bitcoin or digital gold like you're having interest in a lot of alternatives to the traditional money systems, and we see central banks diversifying out of the dollar and increasing their purchase of assets like
Chad Roach: gold. We see a lot of central bank pressure in the last 2 years. Obviously you have the geopolitical tensions and inflations out there. Those fuel demand. You know Russia, Ukraine, some of the political and kind of war tensions. We think that 2025 is going to be a pivotal year for metal markets ubs. The large Swiss bank
Chad Roach: issued some guidance recently, and some price targets for silver that we found to be interesting. Again. We don't give any investment advice. We don't predict the future, but Ubs put out a price target for silver this year. Silver sitting today around $33 an ounce and ubs target for the end of the year was around $38 an ounce, which would be about a 15% increase over the current price.
Chad Roach: and they said that they think that the gold to silver ratio, which is currently about 100 to one right now, may settle down to the mid seventies, which would be an interesting proposition for silver. In fact, one of the biggest trends that we've seen in our company in the last call it 2 months is for customers to call us selling gold and converting it over to silver because they think that silver may be perhaps the undervalued
Chad Roach: metal between the 2 of them. So one just kind of random, anecdotal, interesting trend we've noticed is a lot of investors converting from gold over to silver because of that. So
Chad Roach: if you'd like to find out more, we would just invite you. I know that I'm not going to be able to answer all of the questions that could be asked on today's presentation, but you can call us anytime at our toll, free number, visit our website, and we'd love to help answer any more specific questions that you have. We're a family owned company. We love to talk with people. You're going to get a real person that's been doing gold and silver for decades on the other side of the line if you give us a call, and
Chad Roach: we're always here to help. Whether with Ira related questions or just general precious metals related. So that is kind of the end of my presentation, and I'm going to hand back over to Jacob to continue on with the hosting of the entrust portion of the presentation. So, Jacob, we'll send it back over to you.
Jacob Marchini: Thank you very much, Chad. Appreciate your insights into this fascinating topic. And now we will begin the Q&A. Section. So I'm just going to go ahead and read off some of the questions that have been asked in the question and answer section here, and I will answer them myself or have Chad approach these as is appropriate anybody who thinks of anything else. While we're doing this, please feel free to type that in, and we will do our best to answer all the questions that get asked on this webinar.
Jacob Marchini: The 1st question asked here is, do you need to sell your precious metals back to the dealer whom you bought them from, and the answer to that is, no
Jacob Marchini: you can purchase precious metals from cornerstone, and then sell them to another dealer
Jacob Marchini: or vice versa. You do not need to necessarily sell the medals back to the party that you purchased them from.
Chad Roach: That's right, and we encourage folks to do a bit of price discovery, and don't always just assume that the dealer you bought them from like, call around, get educated, and work with the person who's going to give you the best service and the best price.
Jacob Marchini: Next question, when numismatic coins are purchased through an Ira, is there a requirement that they are 3rd party graded? The entrust group does not require a
Jacob Marchini: sort of certification of 3rd party grading, or anything like that, as part of our purchase process. Perhaps you can give a little bit more color on that chat. If there's anything that you'd like to provide.
Chad Roach: It's a great question. So gold eagles and more modern gold coins tend to not be graded. You can grade them and get like an Ms. 68 Ms. 70 rating on the coins. It doesn't dramatically affect their value to 99% of investors. The older coins do tend to be graded. So the old St. Gauden, or Gold Liberty coins. These are the coins from around 100 years ago that the Us. Produce. Those are kind of the most common
Chad Roach: graded gold coins in the Us. Those tend to be graded, and they tend to be graded by the larger grading firms like Pcgs or Ngc. And when they are a little bit of a higher value than not graded, or you know, but partially depending on the grade. So if you were to have a very high grade like an Ms. 65,
Chad Roach: $20 liberty coin like that's going to carry a better grade than just a gold liberty coin just kind of sitting in the open, because generally we dealers would assume that that's kind of a lower grade. So those are the older your coins, but that's quickly where it becomes something where you think you're paying
Chad Roach: all this extra value. Then you come and turn around and sell it, and you get surprised and realize it didn't have quite as much value for that grading that you think so. That's where our caution is. Just don't overpay for those coins. But yes, grading can help their value. Some.
Jacob Marchini: Hmm!
Jacob Marchini: Now, here's 1 for me. Here's the question asks tax treatment in a before tax. Sep ira, if you take distribution of the physical bullion. How was the tax assessed? Who sets the spot? Price and premium assumption? Presumably the tax liable is due immediately in cash upon distribution? Or can it be paid in so many Troy ounces of bullion so multifaceted? Question. Here, let's just start with
Jacob Marchini: with the 1st part of this. If you take distribution of the physical bullion. How is the tax assessed? So when
Jacob Marchini: Bullion, the in kind, precious metals are taken as a distribution from an End trust group Ira. The entrust group
Jacob Marchini: displays the market value of our clients, precious metals, as shown on a site called bullionvalues.org. And so that is the site that we use to
Jacob Marchini: inform the market value of our clients, precious metals, assets, and what the distribution value would be if they requested a distribution. So the value that you just display on that is displayed on your entrust group account. At the time that you request. The distribution is the amount that we will put on the 1099 r. Form for that year to record the distribution and record the taxable value
Jacob Marchini: of the assets, and so the spot price is set by bullionvalues.org, and that is repeated by the entrust group and recorded on the 1099 r. Form. When your distribution is done
Jacob Marchini: regarding the payment of the taxes for that distribution? Can it be paid in bullion, or is it due immediately upon cash distribution? Again, a little bit of a multifaceted question. The
Jacob Marchini: tax liable for your in kind distribution is not necessarily due upon the distribution at the immediate time of the distribution. When you take a distribution from your account you can have. You'll be asked in your in your distribution request. If you want to have withholding taken from the
Jacob Marchini: distribution, the withholding being a percentage of value withheld from your account distribution and sent directly to the Irs and the Federal Government to pay those taxes, and in the case of a in kind distribution. You, if you have a cash portion of your account that's not invested in precious metals you can have withholding.
Jacob Marchini: I believe you can have withholding. Actually, that is something that I might have to ask my my coworkers and precious metals. If that is something that can be done? So
Jacob Marchini: so normally, when you take a cash distribution, you can have withholding taken and sent directly to the Federal Government. But I would have to actually ask if there is any way you can have cash distributions, cash withholding taken on a precious metals distribution. But I can say with certainty that you cannot have
Jacob Marchini: bullion sent directly to the Federal Government. All taxes paid via withholding have to be paid in cash, so if you don't have withholding, if that can't be done. Then you would simply get the full value of your distribution. The value of that distribution would be recorded on a form 1099 r. And then the
Jacob Marchini: the that amount would be taxable to you, and you would handle that when you do your taxes for that year in the following tax season.
Jacob Marchini: Next question given the total of fees that are charged by the custodian dealer and depository, what is the minimum investment that makes precious metals investing worth it. In other words, can someone feasibly start this with $1,000, $5,000, or $10,000? Or is this better suited for accredited investors who have 100,000 or $250,000 to invest.
Jacob Marchini: So I think it's difficult to answer this question directly up.
Jacob Marchini: because there are many different variables that go into it. But I will say that the absolute minimum that the entrust group will charge for our record keeping services is $200 per year. That is the absolute minimum that you will pay to the entrust group, and that is, if your account is invested in the minimum number of separate assets and with the minimum possible value, and then the minimum of
Jacob Marchini: of depository services that you would pay to any of the depositories that we work with is $100 per year. So you're looking at a minimum minimum value for the entrust groups cost and your depository services cost of $300 per year. So if you think you can make
Jacob Marchini: enough money on a thousand dollar investment to make $300 per year in fees, or 30% just eaten up in fees of your value, then you know that is more power to you. But that would be exceedingly difficult. So we, the best answer I can give to this question is to give the amount of money that would be you would pay minimum, and to have you review our fees.
Jacob Marchini: You know very clearly to figure out what the minimum investment amount would be for you. Given your current financial situation and what you would want to invest in any further character. To add to that, Chad regarding cornerstones, billing practices.
Chad Roach: I would say so. We have a $25 shipping fee on smaller orders. So it's not that onerous to get started on something smaller, but I think generally to just kind of corroborate what you just said. We we don't typically see people, you know, doing, you know, hundreds, or even like a thousand or 2. Typically it's a 5 to $10,000 or more. People start to feel like it's, you know, worth an offsetting.
Chad Roach: you know, for the costs involved, and part of it just depends on how much you value the protection of being in physical metals. Some people value that protection a little more. They're willing to pay a little higher premium of it, and it makes sense for them to do a smaller transaction. And other people, you know they're going to lend towards the larger transactions. But we do a lot in the 5 to $10,000 plus range.
Jacob Marchini: Hmm.
Jacob Marchini: So next question, what is my insurance? If the depository company disappears, and then it's a 3 part question, contact info of Chad roach. And what do you think of stocks like? Gdx?
Jacob Marchini: What is my insurance at? The Depository company disappears like if they
Jacob Marchini: drop off the face of the earth.
Jacob Marchini: I don't have a good answer to that, Chad. What is? What information can you share about that?
Chad Roach: Ask the depository for the information they can provide you on their insurance contract. Most depositories are underinsured by Lloyds of London, and that's who underwrites them. So they're going to be not exclusively. But Lloyds is typically the insurer behind these depositories. You might just ask them, could I take a look at the verbiage of that policy, or could you give me the events of coverage?
Chad Roach: Including like, for example, fraud, or you know, some of those things. So that would be a question I probably would put directly to the repository, because it's going to depend on their specific insurance policy.
Chad Roach: To answer the question on the contact information. I can just kind of reflash that slide up real quick, so that if anybody would like to, you're welcome to reach us here at this toll free number or at this email. We are family owned business. You'll either be getting myself
Chad Roach: or a family member, and we're happy to kind of chat further and answer any additional questions you'd like on that. And I don't have a lot of thoughts on stocks like Gdx Jacob, you might be able to add more. There they are going to be sort of the non physical version of what we do. What we do is deal in the physical, you know, actual, tangible coin or bar, not a proxy of that. So regardless of whether you're in the equities or etf market, there's various synthetic ways to do this or ways to proxy ownership.
Chad Roach: We try to get as close as you can to owning the physical item itself, and that's a value to some people, but I can't necessarily tell you what how you should think about that. That's that's gonna be a little bit of an individual investor disposition.
Jacob Marchini: next question looks like, this will be something for me. I'd like to start investing in silver, and I have an entrust account, who do I contact first.st So if you already have an entrust group, Ira, but you haven't yet used it to invest in precious metals. I would say that the 1st item of business would be for you to go to our website and look at the depository election forms on our Forms library and see which of the depositories you'd like to store your metals with. If you'd like to move forward with that
Jacob Marchini: you would submit that to my coworkers at our precious metals department. The submission information will be on the forms themselves, but you can send that to precious metals@theentrustgroup.com. Once you have chosen your depository to get them to set up your storage account with the depository, so the metals that you buy have somewhere to go
Jacob Marchini: from there you would speak to your chosen metals, dealer, so you could speak to Chad or his his employees at Cornerstone Bullion, or any other precious metals dealer that you wish to start that process, and they will work out the
Jacob Marchini: details of the purchase you wish to make, and write it on a document called an Invoice. That invoice will then be submitted to my coworkers in our precious metals department, along with our internal form, the precious metals by direction letter, which instructs us to fulfill that. Invoice and send money from your Ira to your chosen
Jacob Marchini: metals vendor, and then the metals vendor will deliver the purchased metals to the depository. You have chosen, and that's how you make precious metals investments with your already established and trust Group Ira.
Jacob Marchini: Following that next question, if I have an entrust sd Ira, can I buy from different dealers? And yes, you are not limited to a single dealer. When you purchase metals using your entrust group, Ira, you can buy from cornerstone, or you can buy from another metals vendor. You do not have to register or commit to a single metals vendor. When you purchase metals using your Ira with the entrust group.
Jacob Marchini: Next question, what is the Federal capital gains tax on gold bullion held for one year or longer? So
Jacob Marchini: Federal capital gains tax should not really be an issue with a purchase of metals using an Ira. The point of using an Ira is that the gains on the value of your assets are either tax deferred in the case of a traditional Ira or post tax in the case of a Roth Ira, so that you don't end up paying taxes on the gains for your investments.
Jacob Marchini: So there would, ideally, unless there's something very strange going on. Not be any sort of capital gains tax if you purchase gold bullion, and then the value of that gold bullion increases within a year. Within several years.
Chad Roach: To jump in on that if someone ended up taking a distribution eventually from their Ira holding it and then holding it for a year longer and selling it, or some scenario where, outside of an Ira, you want to answer that question usually talk to your Cpa. But conventional wisdom is the collectible capital gains. Tax rate is what applies to precious metals, and if you're holding for a year or longer, it's up to 28% depending on your tax bracket. It can be lower, depending on which tax bracket you're in for your Agi.
Jacob Marchini: -
Jacob Marchini: Next question, what is the minimum investment amount for gold or silver? There is no minimum investment amount that the entrust group sets for making your metals investments you can spend as little or as much as you wish on precious metals. However, please do keep in mind our answer from earlier that the absolute minimum amount you will pay the entrust group for holding any amount of precious metals is
Jacob Marchini: $200 per year to the entrust group directly, and $100 per year to your depository if you get the absolute, cheapest option. So if you're if you spend $500 on precious metals, and then you're paying us $300 per year in fees. That's difficult to make that sort of math work. So for be sure to take that into consideration when determining the amount of your purchase.
Jacob Marchini: Next question can or will entrust, accept cash deposits for the purpose of accumulating minimum precious metals, purchase transactions.
Jacob Marchini: Hmm. A.
Jacob Marchini: Allow me to just answer that question. With some general information the entrust group will, you know you can put money into your entrust group account as a contribution for the current tax year up to the maximum amount allowed as you could for any other Ira, so the minimum the maximum amount you can put into a traditional Ira at the interest group, just like any other. Ira is $8,000 per year, depending on your age and your income
Jacob Marchini: same for a Roth, Ira.
Jacob Marchini: And that money can be used for precious metals. If that answers the question there, if you'd like further clarification, please feel free to reach out.
Jacob Marchini: you know, with another question later in this Q&A session, or to me directly. So we can clarify that further
Jacob Marchini: next question, do you envision that precious metals could be used directly to buy other assets like real estate stocks, etc, without converting to fiat? First, st the answer for that from a processing standpoint at the interest group is, no. If you are going to purchase anything using your Ira with the interest group, we only do transactions in Usd. So if you purchase precious metals, if you buy a bunch of silver or gold.
Jacob Marchini: and you have that owned by your Ira. You could not then have us
Jacob Marchini: ship metals to an escrow account to purchase, precious, to purchase a piece of property with your Ira. You would have to liquidate, and then get cash into your Ira, which would then be used to make other purchases.
Chad Roach: Outside the Ira world. We do see that happen occasionally where some someone will do a trading barter directly with metals, but it's got to be outside the self directed Ira context for that to happen.
Jacob Marchini: precisely. Can a self-directed Ira be a Roth Ira? Yes, self-directed is not to clarify a type of Ira per se self-directed is more of a description of services offered by certain companies like the entrust group. When an Ira company
Jacob Marchini: says that it is self-directed, that means that they help you make investments in what we call alternative assets, things like precious metals, real estate, private equity, or loans, or other sorts of things that brokerage firms like vanguard, Charles Schwab, etc. Do not allow you to invest in. They could they? Very. There's nothing saying that Vanguard couldn't help you purchase precious metals with your traditional Ira
Jacob Marchini: or your Roth Ira there, but they simply don't, because that is not their business model, not a service they're interested in offering.
Jacob Marchini: But yes, your Ira at the interest group can be a traditional or a Roth, or a Sep or simple Ira. If you're interested in opening those types of accounts with us just like they could be at any other Ira custodian.
Jacob Marchini: here's 1 that I'm that we might need your expertise on a little bit. Here, Chad, what is the best way to choose a dealer or depository.
Chad Roach: Yeah, great, great question. I would recommend starting with golddealerreviews.com to start with a dealer. I believe there's maybe perhaps other lists out there. Other review sites. They're not necessarily bad, but I believe interest also has maybe perhaps lists of dealers that, like you could start with the key thing is just
Chad Roach: get educated. Get to know someone we recommend finding someone that you can actually like talk to interact with, ask real questions to, and then you can probably ping the dealer for more information on the depository. You can do your own independent research on the depository. The depositories that entrust works with, I believe, are publicly available on the entrust website.
Jacob Marchini: Engine.
Chad Roach: Get that from them as well. And so you can go research there. You won't find much. The websites here are business cards at best in some cases, and so talking to a dealer just saying like, Hey, tell me about your experience working with Delaware versus Dakota Depository. I could give you 20 min on that. I won't do it here on this call, but, like your your dealer, can really fill you in on the horror stories and and the good service stories, and all of that in the depository world.
Jacob Marchini: Hmm!
Jacob Marchini: Next question can I put bullion, I already own, into a self-directed Roth Ira? The unfortunate answer to that is no contributions made to an Ira must be made in cash in us dollars. You cannot put assets that you already own into an Ira account. It has to contributions to your account, Ira account must be made in cash in us dollars.
Chad Roach: If someone needed to be really creative, they could sell that metal to a dealer. The dealer could provide them cash. They could fund their Ira account, and then they could in turn purchase the same metal back through the Ira account from the dealer. If there was an interest in protecting around certain coins. That's something that we can do for a customer where they have certain coins that they want in there. But that's a very indirect way of doing it, and probably doesn't provide a lot of value because you still have to like sell them 1st before you can rebuy them. In the course of your Ira.
Jacob Marchini: And the and it only works. That sort of thing only works up to the dollar value that you're able to contribute to your Ira, which is again a maximum of $8,000 per year for Roth and traditional Iras. If you are 50 years of age or over older, $7,000. If you are less than 50 years of age.
Jacob Marchini: see, outside of my Ira, I would like to buy physical, silver and gold for personal keeping. Is there a website that shows reliable and high integrity companies? I'll turn that over to Chad.
Chad Roach: Yeah, I would recommend checking out golddealerreviews.com. And that's basically a site that sources reviews from customers that have actually done business with those companies rather than kind of the paid review services and check check through that companies like cornerstone, we do millions and millions of dollars worth of Ira transactions with custodians like entrust.
Chad Roach: but we also are full service to folks, for their individual precious metals needs as well. So there's no need to necessarily like.
Chad Roach: distinguish that like, if you find a deal that you like, they can actually service both sides.
Jacob Marchini: Next question, can you convert an existing precious metal, self-directed Ira to a Roth Ira? Certainly that is done via a transaction called a Roth conversion, wherein you would open up a Roth, Ira, and then file some paperwork, telling the interest group that you wish to effectively assign the
Jacob Marchini: the assets, either cash or metals into, or both from the traditional Ira to the Roth Ira. So you do change your account number because the Roth Ira, and the traditional Ira will be set up separately, and will have different account numbers. But you can move the assets from the traditional into the Roth. If you already have precious metals purchased using a traditional Ira. Please be aware, though, that any such conversion like that
Jacob Marchini: that is a taxable transaction. So you, because you're moving money from a pre-tax account
Jacob Marchini: into a Roth or post tax account. So if you have $50,000 worth of precious metals, and you request a conversion, you will need to deal with $50,000 worth of extra taxable income for that year, because you're moving that money into a Roth, Ira, when you next pay your taxes for that year.
Jacob Marchini: plus side is, if the value of those metals then shoots off, and you are able to make a large profit on that. Then the
Jacob Marchini: Proceeds from that sale, come back into your roth, Ira, and enjoy the tax-free benefits of being in the Roth Ira, rather than the traditional Ira.
Jacob Marchini: and that is the end of the currently available questions. Is there anybody else who has a
Jacob Marchini: question that they'd like answered on this
Jacob Marchini: Q. And a session. If not, we please do recall that we have a slide up on the screen here that shows our contact information. You can please feel free to send more information to myself and to chat.
Jacob Marchini: All right. I don't see anybody
Jacob Marchini: making more questions, so I believe we have reached the end of our webinar today. Thank you very much for attending everyone, Chad, thank you very much for the excellent information and for having for coming on to our webinar today.
Chad Roach: Thank you, Jacob. It was a joy to be with you.
Jacob Marchini: Likewise. All right, have a good day. We'll see you all next month for the next topic.